JohnPaul Baric sits down with Alexander Neumueller, the architect of the Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index (CBECI), to explore how real-world energy data is transforming the Bitcoin mining conversation. They dive into the evolution of mining markets, the role of grid-responsive assets, and the new frameworks institutions are using to evaluate mining's sustainability and profitability. If you're looking to allocate capital to infrastructure-backed Bitcoin strategies, this episode is your blueprint.
Drawing on his deep roots in finance, academia, media, and even personal Bitcoin mining experience, Alexander discusses Bitcoin's potential to decarbonize energy grids, harness stranded energy, and redefine sustainability. He unpacks the evolving role of Bitcoin mining, debunks common myths, and shares insights from his work at Cambridge, which bridges the gap between the mining industry and policymakers by providing trusted, evidence-based data. The conversation highlights key findings from Cambridge's latest report, including the significant impact of utilizing otherwise flared gas for mining and the changing geographic distribution of hashrate, ultimately envisioning a greener future for the industry.
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0:00 – Introduction. Meet Alexander Neumueller, the architect of the CBECI and researcher at the Cambridge Centre for Alternative Finance.
3:45 – The Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index (CBECI): Purpose and Methodology. How CBECI became the industry’s most cited source on Bitcoin mining energy use.
10:10 – Global Mining Energy Mix: What the Data Actually Shows. The true share of sustainable energy in Bitcoin mining. Regional differences: U.S., South America, Europe, and MENA. Dispelling misconceptions about Bitcoin’s carbon footprint.
16:20 – Mining as an Energy Asset: Grid Flexibility and Demand Response. How miners are increasingly acting as real-time energy participants. The emerging case for mining as a stabilizer in renewables-heavy grids.
22:50 – Institutional Capital and Mining Infrastructure. How energy data is unlocking new investment from funds, family offices, and energy firms. CBECI’s role in derisking mining narratives for traditional allocators.
28:00 – Policy, ESG, and the Role of Research. Why CBECI is referenced by policymakers and regulators globally. The gap between ESG perceptions and operational realities in mining.
35:15 – The Evolution of Mining Strategy. Efficiency, uptime, and jurisdictional selection as investment drivers.
42:00 – Final Thoughts & Resources. How investors can engage with CBECI findings. Where Bitcoin mining is heading and how research will continue to shape its trajectory.
Follow Alexander Neumueller:
X / Twitter: @alexneumueller - https://x.com/alexneumueller
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-neumueller/
Jp:[00:00:00] Welcome back to Digital Gold season two, where we dive into Bitcoin's energy debate with alexander. New Miller Cambridge University's climate and digital assets expert architect of the Cambridge Bitcoin electricity consumption index, and a crypto native leader bridging mining and policy with deep roots in finance, academia, and media. Alexander unpacks Bitcoin's potential to decarbonize the grid, harness stranded energy, and redefine sustainability while guiding global institutions like the World Bank. Today we'll explore mining's evolving role, debunking myths, and envision a greener future powered by Bitcoin. Alexander, welcome
to Digital Gold. I'm excited to have you. Alexander: Thank you very much. Thank you for giving me the chance and inviting me to your podcast. Jp: So you spent a few years in the corporate banking and asset management section. What inspired you to leap into Bitcoin mining in blockchain research? Was there a specific pivotal moment you remember, or did it slowly creep up?
Alexander: Yes, definitely the latter one. So it did slowly creep up. So basically I
started quite a long [00:01:00] time in banking, had multiple roles. I was, starting basically, very early on in my life in more kind of the retail than
corporate banking. Then went into basically treasury, , kind of, prop trading
was at the end, but I did in the bank. I went then on, , at some point worked for an asset manager where I looked more into this kind of investment sphere. Basically, me getting into, being interested in Bitcoin goes back a bit to my university days where I was always quite interested, specifically in a economics , and there is some sort of like relationship, right? but at that point it was really going back to, I think 12. So, so when we talk about Bitcoin at that time, it was very different that not is today, but kind of how people perceive Bitcoin in a completely different world. And I need to admit, I was ideologically interested in this new technology, I was tech savvy, right? But not to a very large extent, possibly not to the extent that I would've
been, because currently nowadays much information about Bitcoin [00:02:00] available, but at that time it was very hard to get anything. And then it was more kind and these sort of things. And, , yeah, sometimes it was quite technically and, uh, yeah, it was also different kind of environment in terms of specifically with, , yeah, how Bitcoin was being used at that time. So I could ideologically somehow identify this is why I was interested in the subject. And, but at that time I was unfortunately not investing in it. But I kind kept tabs on it, so I was just, okay, let's, I may not invest, but I, it's just interesting to see how it evolves and yeah, I, I kind of kept interested and at some point I started mining myself. And, bit, a bit after I did it, I kind of started
it, so not but doing it myself physically, but I was, basically, you know, outsourcing it essentially. And, , in thousand 19 I formed my own mining company, but everything was done fully, remotely and everything was set up in China. So, yeah. I basically, this was how I got more generally involved in [00:03:00] this space. And at some point I went to Cambridge to study before my role at the center for Alternative Finance. And yeah, this time 2021, right? Was a bit of a tough
operations in China. And yeah, it was do
finance. Do I look into the blockchain space, did some things there as well, specifically related to defi, , or do I do something different? And specifically
looking into electricity consumption. So actually develop , our electricity
consumption index. At some point I was taking it over and , made some
adjustments, put on new content, right. But yeah, this is kind of how I end up
in the center because I think I had this, I would say expertise in how the
industry works, specifically specific, which machines are used and these sort of
things, right? How the market works. And, I [00:04:00] tried to bring this
knowledge to my work at the research center and work on improving
specifically theoretical estimates that were out there at that point, which, yeah, how many did in multiple updates of our methodology. But then, and I think one of our key points. I had, , seen recently after I joined, I, , had contact with kind of the industry and over time this connections
developed. This is how I got in touch with kind the mining council. But it took
quite some time to, to find a bit of a common ground, right?
So how can things be, how can we leverage synergies between what they're
doing and between what we are doing? Right? Which, , early last year, fortunately culminated in the creation of this survey where we found that, well, , how deep can we ask U minus, right? What can we ask you about and making, but in the way that is in line with, our own kind internal guidelines and.[00:05:00] People who are invited to participate in the survey are really, participants in the industry, right? So it's not just someone who, fills out some link that we got, somewhere from, and we just, everything that people provide to us know , every minus has been individually onboarded and they're, and yeah. And finally, , last week, all this kind of work culminated in the publication of this reward. And yeah, very, very excited to be here today to kind of talk about it.
Jp: / So you mentioned mining in China and that's some of the expertise you
brought to Cambridge and updating the model. Can you talk about specifically
maybe what you saw in your mining operation and then maybe what they
were doing? Maybe not wrong, but. What you changed in, in this new, presentation or new report?
Alexander: Uh, yeah, I mean this was, basically, I did not directly invest, I
started mining because , having this kind of finance background you like, unite
cash flows and these sort of things unite DCF models, and this is kind of how I
came into it. to me was a bit more [00:06:00] related to my past mining than
just, you know, buying ling Bitcoin. this was not, was interesting, right. But I think the mining space was a bit more related to my finance past and was more exciting and more interesting, frankly. And yeah, I mean I think there were at that time definitely good opportunities, right? . We still had the entire supply chain essentially was in China, which was very convenient, because you had the manufacturers there. You had like, you know, the farms there, you had the repair centers there. So everything was pretty much, , established. And I mean, if at that point globally, I mean, the US had some hash rate, right? But this, in 19, it was still a completely different environment. , Everything was very, very much, focused on China. And yeah, I mean, the first kind of thing that, , disrupted , my operations a bit frankly and I'm sure you know where the s. , Kinda issue where with the heating's, you know, and specifically if you're not managing yourself, you're
completely reliant on, you know, you, I had obviously trusted kind of parties, but [00:07:00] still, with the repair sentence, if you can't do it yourself, right, you're a hundred percent reliant , and, you know, a lot of bad batches. And this was kind of the first thing. And, and in the end, you know, after 2021, specifically, if you are kind of, if you were a , small, kind of sized mining
operation, I mean, there was, COVID logistics was terrible, and it was banned. I
was even happy that received a couple of machines, you know, that I could sell
at some point in somewhere. and yeah, I think it was, a very rich experience, if we want to call it like that. And definitely lot of things I've learned and yeah, I mean, currently how I
transport this knowledge specifically to my current role, it's just kind. a bit of
the established network to a lot of folks, right, globally, which obviously is
incredibly important for doing things like this survey because you need to get
miners to contribute, to provide data, but specifically private miners, right?
To have under no obligation to provide anything to anyone except your
balance sheet or your annual [00:08:00] reports. and I think that these kind of
things help, it also helped kind of understand talking to folks, you know, because I didn't never know how it works actually on the ground. So I need to
admit, I have never installed an asic. at some point, actually, I'm now, I'm now
aiming to buy, I don't wanna name any brands, but to buy some kind of small
at home mine to just try it out a bit. to just see kind of how it works practically. Because I always just saw, on your pool, your hash rate and sort of things if something didn't work, you know, it
was kind of like, the operator telling you, okay, there's this kind of problem. And then you kind of managing the logistics to get it to the repair, more kind of having this high level view. but still, you know, you still kind of know how things work. And I believe that definitely helped me to kind of bring this knowledge to my research.
Jp: And so it sounds like you have people that have mined before like yourself, but maybe were disconnected from the miner. You have people that, have never mined at all, and then you have people that are minding and physically working on the device itself. How do those three different perspectives kind [00:09:00] of, how have you seen them change? Not change, but how have you seen them perceive Bitcoin mining differently? , You've dealt with a lot of the headaches of a mining owner. Maybe not as a mining owner who can physically access his hardware, and then like I said, versus someone who just has heard about Bitcoin mining but has never even
attempted it. When you're in your research, did you come across, and as you talk about your
research, how do those different people engage and view Bitcoin mining?
Alexander: Yeah, so good point. I think we, specifically in my work, you work
with a lot of different stakeholders. And indeed there are some, you know, obviously like miners who, you know, fully. , I would not necessarily say there's a lot of difference in perspective between those who, for instance, only do hosting with those , who basically do everything , in terms of how they perceive mining. I think they perceive it pretty similar. It's more, I think, kind of the, knowing the nitty gritty of all this on the ground operations that some know and some don't, but generally people have a bit of an understanding, right? Even if you have never [00:10:00] built something on ground, you know that of IFUs air quote miners, you know, you need to make sure the air flow. So it's more kind of, , the difference in my work comes down to speaking
sometimes with folks who might have, , had no exposure to mining at all. Right?
Possibly to having heard about Bitcoin, if even, I mean, who definitely, but, , having also a bit of a, a background of what is actually Bitcoin. , And then even if that is there, , you might have folks who might have not really, even a broad understanding , of what mining actually is currently is changing. And so over, over the time , I'm doing this work here in the research center, I
think what we saw is definitely an increase in the understanding of the overall
kind of global community from all stakeholders. And it really goes from, you
know, regular people. Like if I would ask someone on the street. Do you know what Bitcoin mining is? most likely they're gonna tell you add something with data centers. And something, you know, computing. And so it's not the complete back box. You have a very, [00:11:00] very broad idea and they think the same is true for a lot of, let's say, kind of, regulators, policy
makers, and these sort of folks as well. Where you see obviously more kind of as the industry becomes bigger, in some jurisdiction, some kind of, stakeholders and such, stakeholders are getting a much better idea of what it actually is because they might either want to
promote it in the jurisdiction or do the opposite, right? Some say, well, this is
not a. So , you see this kind of different perspective, but overall, I think, and , one of
the points in the report is as well that it should serve as a bit of a foundation. The first edition where it starts really about , what is Bitcoin firstly, and then
also explains mining, not necessarily in extreme amount of detail, but at least
at a level of detail where those who go through it have some sort of, I would
say, basic understanding of, okay, what are we actually talking about here?
And yeah, this was also one of the, kind of this educational component was, at
least for the first edition, kind of a big, thing for us [00:12:00] to include to
make sure that, , someone who might be a newcomer has, if you start at page
one and you finish at the last page, you kind of know on the surface of , what is
actually going on from what is Bitcoin, what is mining, what is the currency of
the industry? And then a bit about, okay, where things are heading. Jp: And so it sounds like you have people that have mined before like yourself, but maybe were disconnected from the miner. You have people that, have never mined at all, and then you have people that are minding and physically working on the device itself. How do those three different perspectives kind of, how have you seen them change? Not change, but how have you seen them perceive Bitcoin mining differently? , You've dealt with a lot of the headaches of a mining owner. Maybe not as a
mining owner who can physically access his hardware, and then like I said, versus someone who just has heard about Bitcoin mining but has never even
attempted it. When you're in your research, did you come across, and as you talk about your
research, [00:13:00] how do those different people engage and view Bitcoin
mining? And I did read part of the report, obviously it's very long, but I did like it how
you set that up and how you, clearly state, here's a building box. Before we
jump into , mining's impact, the head of, climate research for this project, for
Cambridge Digital Asset Program, what's the most surprising finding your team
or yourself uncovered about Bitcoin's environmental footprint or just about
Bitcoin mining's interaction with the rest of the world. Alexander: I think . One of the most interesting finding for myself, right? It always depends a bit kind of what you expect specifically if you're very much engaged in the industry. There were a lot of things that might be very
interesting for those who might not have daily engagement, or are
continuously up to date with where things happening. Personally, I think the, power coming from otherwise flat gas, kind of the extent I think one of the, for me personally, one of the key research findings, because I think this is one of the best kind of use [00:14:00] cases where, you
know, really someone is coming in and off takes energy that's otherwise really
being, because if you just flare natural gas, there's absolutely no kind of
economical point to do that and no point for the environment. And if you can find, you know, this specific report was bitcoin mining, but there is also. HPC operations that you can build, but specifically given the CapEx, given the flexibility, I think, digital mining that regard is a very, kind of fitting offtake, of this in, in this specific use case of, for instance, otherwise, otherwise
gas and the extent of it. And then trying to convert the extent. So it was about 500 megawatts. Convert this to, you know, extra emission reduction under different scenarios. Right. I
don't wanna go into too much detail here, but it's in the report, right, where
you have different scenarios coming global if you use different global
warming, , potentials and, periods,, if you use different assumptions for
combustion [00:15:00] efficiencies, and then in the end trying to, you know, show different kind scenarios and show that might, for instance be even a positive effect something. on the. Even possibly a bit of a mitigating effect by just, uh, using a, a gas engine instead of a flare stack and possibly having a higher conversion of, , essentially, , methane to, to c2. And this is what I think was one of the most interesting findings, , that from the importance, I think what we is, the
electricity mix was changing. I necessarily those in space. We might talk about this a bit later, kind of the, we captured a lot of hash rate, right? So we captured the 50% of the network, but
still there is a bit of a US overhang, let say like this. So in terms of jurisdictions
close to 50%, where US located, if you look at the distribution of hash rate, also
very US focused. So definitely, but still, it,, shows kind of [00:16:00] a direction because overall I
think there's not much question about the US being the predominant kind of
mining hub in the world. It's more about kind of the present. We go from like
estimates around 40% to our estimate, 75%, which personally, I think the one
is maybe a bit too low, but the other one too high. So it's kind of a decentralized, very hard. To essentially establish where folks are located. And you can try different things, work in pathways, mining pools now with directly, serving miners. And I think those are kind of the ways with
both the limitations and obviously, benefits. So, but yeah, so much, so much to
that. Uh, and sorry if I, if I digressed a bit, please. if you want to drill into , any points deeper, but yeah, possibly another point was ewas kind of the repurpose, recycling , and reselling that a lot of people I guess find interesting as well to see this. We have climate mitigation strategies
where we show different [00:17:00] strategies, , to what extent miners are
using those. We have a lot of sentiment questions in there as well. So yeah, I think those
are kind of the, the interesting, the most interesting aspect and possibly to
some extent also quite exciting. Jp: My next question is, how do you ensure that the Cambridge Bitcoin electricity consumption deck stays relevant as mining evolves? And did you
guys identify any like critical data gaps that still need addressing or things
you'd like to explore in the next version of this presentation?
Alexander: Yes, I think it's a very, very good point. So first of all, we have now I
think, two different, if I may call it product. The first work is more on our
website and essentially the estimates you can see there are based on
theoretical modeling. So that's a bit of the difference to the report where if
you go on the website and you see an estimate, for instance, for electricity
consumption, it is essentially a daily estimate.
Everyday estimates are updated and we keep this. The findings we had
[00:18:00] in the kind of report and based on minor participation in the survey
corroborate that kind of, that our theoretical modeling in terms of electricity
consumption works pretty well because even though we had two different
methodologies at this specific point in time, which was the thirties June, 2024, we saw a very, both estimates in terms of electricity consumption from, you
know, minor surveys and our theoretical modeling very closely aligned. So , we see if we use past mining council estimates as well. So we see kind of, there is an alignment even to different methodologies. So we are very confident in the electricity consumption estimate. This has been updated in 2023. To specifically account for periods of very high profitability because
there wasn't the past bit of an issue where our, I would say , first model
definitely, , had some issues when it comes to periods of high profitability, but
I think the new model works works really well and we keep it up to date by
essentially having what we call a hybrid top down approach, which [00:19:00]
means that, we use essentially on chain data to determine profitability of
mining. From that we form a basket of really exist of real world hardware or really
existing hardware. This is based on the list that we are constantly updating. So
if the new hardware models, we're gonna take them into the list and this is
kind of , how we keep things updated. And yeah, I think in terms of electricity
consumption, this works really well. The difficulty is really how you translate essentially electricity consumption to
emissions. If we keep things at the environment, if we look at the
environmental component right. and there in the past you are generally reliant
on so-called location based estimates, where essentially you have some sort of
determination of where mine activity is located globally, and then you can
derive an electricity mix from there. But, our most current data is, based on our last update of what we call a
mining map, which is where we work together with mining pools. And this is
from January, 2022, which means that, uh, quite outdated, right? Specifically
with a very [00:20:00] large share of Kazakhstan and still a very large share of
China in there. And then you get a choose mix that might not be perfectly, kind of reflect how
the reality looks like. This was why it was so important to, even though having
a very large kind of participation of US firms, but still seeing trends like activity
coming to South America activity, coming to the Middle East, activity to some
extent, coming to Africa, to other nations , in Asia, right, for instance, Bhutan, these sort of trends that are kind of relevant. We still saw continuous activity in Northern Europe specifically. So I think this
was very important to have kind of this often anecdotally, , refer trends. That
activity is taking place now a lot more in these kind of regions, basically, I
would say validated , by the findings in the report. And naturally those things have heavily influenced electricity mix, right?
Because specifically looking at Kazakhstan, looking at China, the share of
specific coal, even if we look at, [00:21:00] at fossil fuels, right? There's a huge
difference terms of emissions per kilowatt hour between coal and gas. That it's really, it's kind of like double or even more than double. So it's a huge
difference kind of what, even if we have fossil fuel mix, right? Like what
specifically? How the fossil fuel mix, the composition of the fossil fuel
essentially. , And if you take everything together, we just see that the emission
intensity is quite lower than what we currently estimate based on. Mining map update and, and I think this is one of the key findings that the
report really helps. So while we are very confident in terms of electricity
consumption, estimates that we're ongoing, we provide on an ongoing basis,
it's really kind of this translation from electricity consumption to emissions that
is this difficulty where you need a lot of data that is extremely hard to get as
I'm sure you're aware, right?
Because , there is no kind of technical way to determine where, you know, folks are located. There is no improved stake. For instance, it's a bit [00:22:00]
easier where you can develop like network crawlers and these sort of things
determine. Running, let's say a Bitcoin full. No. And where actually taking place, because if
you use a map of full nodes, most likely you will have, I dunno, 40% in EU
countries. Or something that is like Germany. Most likely it was like 20% or so.
If you just look at Bitcoin full nodes. And so it's really kind of important to
know specifically where mining activity is taking place.
And , that's kind of, , very important just for this emissions calculation. I think
this is what kind of the report complement our more kind of theoretical work. Jp: And there's no way, to your point, without going out in the field and really
asking these large miners \ and medium sized and small miners. Where they're
located, how much hash rate they have, what's their power mix to collect that
type of data? Because the binder doesn't say, Hey, I'm mining from Argentina.
I found a block in Uruguay. It doesn't say that. It's very hard to, differentiate
the zeros and ones, and [00:23:00] you guys have done a great job highlighting
that. I'm really doing the legwork to give us some institutional level research in
this space. Alexander: Yeah, thanks a lot. I think this is kind of where we see ourselves
having this, great, you know, I would say connection to the industry, but also, to more of the, investors, regulators, policy makers, these kind of stakeholders. So I think this brought access to stakeholders. We have from, , , working with you guys to source the data to then provide
something that is kind of, uh, , universally useful. I think we can really function
here as the bridge specifically between, let's say, academia and practice , and
assuming this role as a trust data aggregate, right?
So, for instance, if you a minor, and please feel free if. You know, I, I will reach out and ask, , do you wanna, your, have your logo
displayed or don't you have a logo displayed, , if default, we just, , collect the
data and everything is anonymized. But if you say, Hey, [00:24:00] well, you
know, we wanna be shown, as contributors, that is perfectly fine as well. So really having this kind of trust in the community as well for someone, because I think that's the big point, right? Where you need to convince a miner
to give you data because, you know, there is, just kind of the, upside is quite
limited. Only if there is an upside, if a lot doing it right , to actually help us to
get them really research out there is impactful. This might be the upside, but kind the difficulty getting in and much appreciate, Jp: and to your point, it, it cannot be done without these minors. So everyone
who submitted data, thank you. And if you haven't submitted data or if you'd
like to participate in the next survey, make sure you follow up on the website
and there's QR code links in the report on how to sign up. one of the questions
I have for you here is how should policy makers, which are these stakeholders
that you engage with balance?
Bitcoin mining's energy demand with innovation, especially in regions with
fragile grids or maybe stricter ESG mandates, like the [00:25:00] eus MICA
framework, how does this affect mining and , how should policy makers or and
people regulating the grids be viewing Bitcoin mining as a resource?
Alexander: Yes. What we are trying to do is, being, not having kind of an
opinion in that regard. , so what we are not trying , to take a position, um, what we're trying to do is to inform, and I think hopefully this comes also
across in the report that we are highlighting specific, we are not
recommending, let's say, any sort of grid operates or policymaker to, okay, this
is kind situation, this is what we're trying to recommend you to do.
, It's more kind of trying to put the information out , and if we get a specific
questions, obviously we're gonna answer this question. And, I think there are
use cases that are being described that might, in many jurisdictions, in many
specific circumstances, be like very helpful. But it's then basically , for those
grid operators or policy makers to, decipher themselves, how to view it. We're not kind of actively trying to, [00:26:00] influence any sort of policy
making that regard, but we are putting out the information, right? It's out
there and those obviously who are interested or, you know, interest groups
can pick it up or like those stakeholders can pick it up and read it , and then say, well, this is something that might be helpful to us or it's not something we
need, , whatnot. So, yeah, unfortunately I can't give you a specific answer for that. We really
trying to keep our impartiality here. What we are really trying to do is
aggregate information, put out the information, and then, let the public take
over the conversation. Jp: No, but I love that because it provides, you guys are a neutral, force and
neutral data aggregator that then these policy makers can look at as someone
without an incentive to, let's say, , make Bitcoin mining or you don't have a
financial incentive to, to grow it. You're more just reporting on the facts and
that I think that's a key to, moving this conversation forward.
How did you guys come up with the case study? So you guys interviewed
different groups, you came up with a question, you know, the report says, for
example, beyond [00:27:00] base load, can digital mining help support power
grids? And then you answered that question, you might have a couple charts in
a case study. Can you talk a little bit more about maybe how those were
conducted? And, you mentioned the natural gas opportunity. Maybe if there was other
case studies that kind of highlighted something that you were not expecting or
didn't know before you started, this journey. Alexander: So happy to see a couple of words on the case studies. So the case studies are all based on public information. So that's basically, the case studies were used to, I would say. Make things, make explanations more tangible, right?
Because sometimes you're gonna get lost in descriptions , in these sort of
things, right? That are a bit more abstract. So after explaining certain concepts, these sort of
inside boxes and case study boxes could help to essentially make kind of this
entire concept that is being described or show a real world use case for this
concept. And, , I hope they're [00:28:00] helpful, but it all is based on public
information. So we did not interviews or anything in that regard. And yeah, so I hope that
they're basically just there to really kind of make those descriptions. For
instance, what you said the topic beyond base law, which essentially kind of
demanded response, right? We have ther case study for, mitigation. We case as well for kind of with the heat project , in Finland, right, where they utilize waste, heat and things. We yeah, have some inside boxes that should also help kind of make certain concepts a bit kind of tangible, to the audience. This is why we. Jp: I definitely think they do PR, paint a real world picture of, to these point these miners where you can point of actually where they're doing some
amazing work. One of the items you guys touched on was a level of concern for
selected challenges amongst Bitcoin mining firms and the top three were long- term energy price increases, [00:29:00] unfavorable government action and
adverse development in PTC price. Can you talk more about how you guys investigated those concerns? Or did you just in the survey, ask them? They rated them and then we didn't actually
investigate maybe how these concerns could affect mining as a whole. Alexander: Yeah, I mean, so basically that's based on a survey question. So, essentially, I mean those answers were given, so naturally we did some investigation right to came up with them in the first place, with some kind of pain points, which I. Frankly, I think, yeah, for, for those who follow, this might
be particularly interesting for those who might not on a day-to-day basis follow
the industry, but for those who follow the industry and, you know, starting, you know, with this like very volatile environment in China when mining was still there, to other countries having their opinions on mining, right? This all has implications to some extent that, you know, , are you allowed to Any mining there, which naturally is. Those sort of things are [00:30:00] really important and we see it now even with Russia. Right. Specifically kind of, I think more this kind of south and ian region where they first initiated temporary bans and now I think fully banned
until like over two 30 or
Alexander: something. so those kind of things matter. We see it, uh, yeah, in
some areas in the US it's, it's very interesting, right? Because you have this kind of very different opinions so there's not a US opinion essentially besides kind of obviously the administration's opinion, but depending on the state, you might face very different kind of opinions. , So to
understand the regulatory concern, I mean energy prices, I think it's also pretty
clear because I mean. We did the survey as well about when it comes to cash based expenses, about 80%. So that's kind of your major expense, right? And if you are not certain
about long term electricity deals or prices , that you are able to obtain, it's very
hard to kind of model your profitability going forward. So, yeah, I mean, there is, I think , lot of backstory. We did, a bit of description in the report as well about this, but, basically we did not, ,, too deep [00:31:00] investigations. I think , I might put in a couple of examples, , but yeah, basically all those were obtained just per minus, essentially rating them.
Jp: And one of the things you, You also touched on was like historical trends in
hash price across the different type of having events. Is there anything that
kind of piqued your interest in either Bitcoin's price or hash price or machine
efficiency in those kind of macro metrics that all come down to the imports
into the profitability of mining when you were doing the report?
Alexander: I think mining economics is a super interesting and really
fascinating topic, right? specifically you have a lot of different variables and as
a minor, naturally you need to do forecasting, like specifically , where you
expect bit the big comprise to go. Where do we expect hash rate to go?
If we think about kind of the. In US dollars. There's a lot of kind of, with the
Bitcoin price you have, naturally the increase in hedge rate where you have all
these components. If you just look at kind of hash spread in Bitcoin, , it's a bit
simpler, right? Because you just know it's going [00:32:00] down, most likely, given just the halvings, right? The point is, I think always , in this kind of conversations, the topic of
transaction fees, it's just that besides some kind of temporary anomalies, so
this kind of spikes right? We saw where we really, really saw a, I mean, we just
need to go back to the halving. I mean, that was, if you, I was actually
observing a lot of developments specifically during, Marker
Alexander: because I saw this fascinating, , the kind of amount of revenue
derived from transaction fees, right? I think it was the minus kind of future dream of having transaction or already transaction fees being in BTC terms and multiple of the actual block subsidy. , So, but yeah, this was as, as we saw, really just temporary. I mean, if we look
now, I mean we're, sometimes it's, , zero and, , one set per, we buy in these
sort of things. So there's a lot of interesting component there as well. And what I
conversation is currently I. Mining firms to [00:33:00] continue. But as we go
along, halving by halving, the question will really be kind of like, , how this
dynamic will change, right? Will transaction fees pick up , or what will, essentially happen, right.
, Naturally, you know, you can always say, well, Bitcoin is going to, I don't know, 800,000, 1 million or whatnot. Whether you believe, , this is obviously, , people
have their own beliefs about this. , , it's just that it needs to continuously go up, right? To an extent that , it covers kind of halvings and it covers increases in
hash rate. And I think one of this, and this is really my personal opinion, one of these kind
of points, I believe the mining ecosystem at some point will change. And we'll, when it comes to consumption, we will peak at some point. Where. Simply
miners will need to be a lot more flexible. We see it already, some miners
starting to, for instance, utilize excess renewables, right?
Um, specifically if you have the rere where , you're not mining a hundred
percent uptime, you're mining maybe like 30, 40% uptime and really trying to
capture, you know, excess energy when it's pretty [00:34:00] much like , we
not call it for free, but very, very low cost. And possibly we're gonna see this
developments more as, most likely, hash price will be in, , my opinion, , as we
move forward, as we move forward in time, will become a lot more volatile
than it's now simply because, , sometimes lot transactions, which might
significantly impact. The overall block reward, right? If you have a very low block subsidy, and
sometimes you might not have that much and miners might actually adjust, their activity depending on kind of the network activity at any given moment. This, but this is again, , my personal thoughts on this. So I think mine
economics is al already very important, but, it'll be become much more
important, , , as we, , move along each having and, , yeah, generally I think
there's a lot of, I don't, there's a very specific conversation that I'm not trying
to avoid and to make things , not too controversial in your podcast, but I think
it will be very interesting to see this. Jp: And one of the things about hash price that you're kind of are hinting at is [00:35:00] this evolution of a Bitcoin miner from being the most efficient
machine on the market, using a hundred percent. Of the power to maybe only
using 40% of the time having energy to it. You guys really dug into e-waste and
the evolution of the mining machine. What came out of that from that, research and was there anything that kind of shocked you or what were you seeing about a migration of mining of Bitcoin miners? Are they migrating from the US to other places? Can you touch on that
report and on the report when it comes to e-waste specifically?
Alexander: Yes, absolutely. I think this was a very, very, , interesting finding, frankly, because there was not really information out there right. Specifically
about, . Sim we did a simplified calculation about e-waste, to say this as well, but I think the key message that we, what we found there is that, uh, what is it, 88, close to 87% is being repurposed, resold, or recycled, which I think , if you
look into computing, the e-waste of the [00:36:00] industry is, to me, seemingly definitely a variable that should be considered to some extent. It would've been interesting and possibly for next survey to differentiate a bit more between kind of reselling, repurposing, and actually recycling. , But overall, basically the amount of e-waste, which is about what we found about
certain percent of phased out hash rate, is definitely something to consider if you do, I would say any sort of e-waste modeling. But in the past we really didn't have much information that regard. Right. There was not really where well. Some miners, some public miners put something on their website. So we do recycling, we do this and that. But really something on a more kind of network level where you have engagement , of private miners as well. And to get some kind of understanding of, okay, , what does end up , as really as e-waste, you know, a certain amount of phase out hardware. So I think that was really kind of an an interesting finding and hopefully something that, spurs further research, outside, let's say our survey because a lot of like [00:37:00] researchers, , who might want to look into this again, and, trying to, you know, refine estimates or new estimates in, , Point about distribution of rates. So, as previously mentioned. I think definitely something that needs to be said is that, we had a lot of engagement
of US firms, right? And I think this really comes through, if you look at the
distribution of hash rate, where we found the US at 75%, which, personally I
think is overstated, by any means, it's, the US is def, I have no doubt that the
US is the world largest mining hub, but again, where we are exactly, we have
possibly on the lower end, like around 40%, but then we're at the higher end, , 75.
So it really depends kind of where we're , then. But overall, I think, , given that
the US is a very large country, you have, access to all kinds of different energy
sources, right? It's not a country that predominantly powered by a specific
energy source, like [00:38:00] for instance, when we. And, so I think overall our
findings , are representative, but it needs to be said that, you know, there
might be a bit of a US overhang of participation, which you think, which still, right? I mean we have 50% of the network cash rate. So it's I think still a very, very interesting insights. But yeah, I mean when it comes to the specific kind of geographical distribution question, I think it's more about trends. So where we say, well, if you look into the current map and compare it to our
2022 estimate, we can see that, well the US is still the num number one mining
hub right there. There wasn't any change. But what we see now is specifically
activity in South America. We see activity in the Middle East. We see still
continuous activity, \ to some extent in Northern Europe. We have some like countries like Bhutan there as well, which have been anecdotally, referred to, right. We see some emerging activity in Africa. So I think it's more about kind of this trends that, are often. Not so much Africa, [00:39:00] frankly, I hope that will change in the next report because yeah, lot
has happened since then actually. So, , but still kind of having specifically South America in there having, , the Middle East emerging and, , so it's more kind of about direction development, , developments that happened, let say since 2022, where this is helpful, but I
would not, I would not, know, say well there is this specific percentages , are, , something that is, , absolutely true where we have also very low share of
Russia, for instance. Where we know that there is definitely a lot of my activity in Russia. , China is really kind of a black box, frankly. It's, I mean, getting any data from there, , obviously you ask, but, , it's, it's very hard to get any data. There are estimates
out there that have some data for China. I have no idea where they get it from, frankly. , And, but, no one really knows. But there is definitely some kind of, of aspect that I hope that in the next
survey definitely trying , to increase global outreach and keen to, to have more
kind of, uh, non non-US firms participating as well. But still, , even [00:40:00] if it's a bit kind of, , the sample is a bit us focused. I think overall, , most of the findings besides essentially the global distribution
are still very much relevant. Jp: And I definitely agree with you on that. And one of the things that you mentioned was like, you're getting all this research, you're not trying to make
an opinion about it. How hard is it to be an evidence-based like researcher
versus speculating and having these, opinions about all these different topics
when you're putting this report together and what goes into. The hours, the team, the coordination behind a report like this, how long did it
take? Can you talk more about the process of how, actually, how this piece of
information came about? I. Alexander: Yes, absolutely. I would say, let's start with, I think the most important, the absolute foundation of the report is kind of trying to get a lot of
stakeholders together to provide you with in.
Alexander: This is really where things start. And a lot of work goes into
reaching out, engaging, and [00:41:00] trying just to get, just trying to get
responses right, that there is, at least I would say like 35, 40% just goes into
this. And, the rest is then essentially kind of the, the write up. But yeah, it's, there's
a significant, significant time. You really need to do engagement. You need to
get, , folks to contribute to convince them that, hey, this is actually, it makes
sense. You might not have an immediate benefit by spending, the whole 30
minutes, one hour, depending on , if you already know questions. or if you need to dig a bit deeper into your company, that it's kind of worth to
spend the time. Right. And I edition.
It might, it is definitely something that people are interested in, so it might
make sense for me to contribute. And I think for the first edition, this was the
most kind of difficult part because it hasn't been done before, at least not , for
mining specifically , , at this scale, right. We had the mining council, but it was like four or five questions. So it was not like that extensive. It's a lot easier to ask to answer those questions. [00:42:00] 25 questions that in some cases go a lot deeper than what was asked there. , So, and then the first iteration was really kind of the difficulty to convince, folks
that, hey, well, it makes sense to contribute.I hope that we will have, with the first edition done, , a good starting point where we can convince more that say, Hey, well, if you had privacy concerns, , look, if you wanna be stated, , you're gonna have your logo there. If you're not, you're not right. There is no kind of like, specific individual data sharing that we
are doing. , And I really hope this helps. But yeah, this is, I would say, one of the main
power we started with this, I think about the last year. And in April, first of all, you need to, , develop all the survey questions and these sort of things so that, that makes sense as well. So we had some, , conversations with, , some key
players , of the former, of the BMC, you know, to give, give you just feedback
where, you know, you have a bit of back and forth kind of, bouncing off ideas, what is possible and what is not possible, what is too granular and how far we
can kind of still go. Lot of this kind of, thought process as well. And the [00:43:00] end, if you in
the end have collected data, you kind of need to do the write up, right? This is
depending, this time it took also longer than expected because yeah, in the
end it was okay, let's create something that really enables, you know, someone
who might not be perfectly familiar with the subject. Two, starting at page one, ending at page, I think. And you might not be, an absolute mining expert, but , you know what Bitcoin is. You know, , on the surface how mining works, you know, the current of the industry, you know
about trends and you get a bit of finance aspects as well.
If you read the appendix, right? So you generally mining economics as well. So
you have a, a general understanding, okay, what is actually happening? And we
have this condensed into this one report. and yeah, this is why it took a bit
longer, but yeah, it wasn't really nearly, nearly a year essentially that we were
working on this combined. So there's a lot of, lot of effort that goes into creating something like this.
Jp: And now you have a great piece, which you can build on top of to your
point, and you have that core kind of introduction and some of these questions
on pools and in [00:44:00] firmware. Can you talk a little bit more about how
you got to the pools in firmware? , So as you were digging into this report and creating it, you guys also talked about firmware and mining pools. Did you end up interviewing any pool
operators or firmware operators, or was that data collected from the miners, themselves?
Alexander: Yes. So, basically the mining pools, I took it from man space. I think
they do , and shout out to them. They do fantastic work. So when I look about
anything related to, more, this, more specifics about just looking at blocks, right? Block compositions, things, it's pretty much like man space. Otherwise we work with, which is fantastic by specifically collecting data on, so
yeah, we did not interview anyone, , in that regard. Specifically one of the. So
the report. So naturally we had some conversations and, and really
appreciated his input specifically for some nuances, in the writing in terms of
the firm, where yet that was a survey question. So that was basically [00:45:00] about like asking Myas, okay. Essentially what
kind of firmware you're using. And I think findings are quite interesting. specifically we have, what was anything that unexpected is the large share of
just stock like manufacturer firm, where ish was something that I did not
expect. Frankly, I, I know that there people were, were using it, but, um, it was more
than one fourth, I think, more than a quarter were using it. So , that was
actually one of those things that was surprising. But yeah, in proprietary
firmware, right. Specifically, it makes sense if you're really large mining
company to invest it in and build your own software, right. Specifically tailored to what you need in your operations. , And yeah, and you have some , other operators as well, but yeah, I think it is, similar to the ASIC market where it was also kind of a, i I would say not too much of a surprise
with, uh, Bitmain being heavily dominant and then, you know, if the other two
manufacturers, micro PT and Cannan, this will I think be something where, on
a time series will be quite interesting to, observe, right.
So specifically having now or [00:46:00] see, see how things right. June, 2024. But if we, you know, if we end up at some point at the third iteration, how
things changed over time, right. Specifically how market shares changed in
terms of, uh, the ASIC market. Because so far, I think this is also where we're
contributing. It was kind of known, when you do researcher, you need to
actually data point. It's one thing to, kind of like, you know, have anecdotal evidence or know
things because you know that, that's kind of generally known as an instrument
practitioner. Then having actually, okay, this is a data point based on, you
know, primary data from minor. So that's specifically if you do any research,
it's just like really valuable to have this data point there. and yeah, very, very interesting to see kind of how these things evolve specifically with, uh, most likely now US manufacturers entering the stage. And also in terms of firmware, right? How things change there as well. If we see , third party firmware usage increasing, or if we continue seeing still this quite, I
think [00:47:00] about 40%. So, yeah, I think data are.
Jp: And I think that is where you get a, a really good set of data over time where you can start telling the story of the industry, which, it, it will be amazing to have this data set. So, as I said, thanks again for putting this
together. One of the last things is you kind of end the report with this idea
about data center infrastructure, ai, HPC and Bitcoin mining. was that something that you think miners, were they saying they're looking
into it or they're actively exploring it? It seemed like it was a small portion of
miners. Do you expect that to be a larger portion of the future? So when it
comes to AI and data centers, how are you seeing Bitcoin miners kind of
transition into AI in, in the report?
Alexander: Yeah, sure. So happy to elaborate a bit on this. So that was
essentially, we had only a very small question in there trying to, understand a
bit to what extent [00:48:00] participants. Mine Bitcoin, to what extent they
mine other cryptocurrencies and to what extent they, for instance, have power
allocated to AI operations.
And I think this is one of these data points that we will very closely observe as, you know, we progress, for instance, addition by addition, because that I think,
is a very interesting data point that you can go back historically and then
compare to, for instance, new information as, um, we have, uh, in the end a
more kind of theoretical chapter, which is not based on survey data, but
basically just us thinking about, well, there are kind of the synergies with AI in
many ways of, uh, established mining companies, right?
Having, having kind of power contracts, having the already existing possibly
fitting infrastructure, having that talent. To, diversify their business. And this
was one of those things in the sentiment questions that we also saw where
business diversification was one of the kind of key areas that miners were
looking at. And, and also [00:49:00] if you look into the really statements of public
companies, I think miners moving to AI is, is something that is definitely very, very interesting component. And, um, yeah, we, we did observe this. I think it
is given specifically when we think of, the way how most likely the block
reward will move. Having a lot more volatility possibly when it comes to revenues derived from
mining activity, having this more, I would say, less volatile income stream, you
know, providing AI HPC services. It's quite interesting for mining companies. but on the other hand, what we see is, and I think what we found that the
amount of CapEx required to build this infrastructure system on a whole
different level. So, it is kind of for, I think, uh, in, in terms of the, the capital requirements to
enter this space. It's, yeah, it's quite a feed for mining companies, right. given
that if you wanna build a hyperscaler, it, it's gonna be very, very expensive. And, yeah. So [00:50:00] there are a, a lot of different angles. And specifically also trying to understand the, specifically the increase in
demand for, or the increase in demand of, for instance, state of the art. . Training models, kind of the computational requirements and how those have
changed over time and these, so I think overall there is, um, there is a lot of
information in there that might help understand kind of, okay, this might be an
interesting field for miners and explained why specifically having established
power contract, possibly some infrastructure that can, that is already existing
or um, can be retrofitted on.
And having kind of that, the talent pool that allows to kind of leverage those
synergies and yeah, but still on the other hand, there is kind of this CapEx
element that makes it not so easily translatable where say, Hey, well we have
M Bitcoin and now we're just doing ai. We're actually okay. Fantastic. Yeah. So basically one of the key differences between. Building
mining [00:51:00] infrastructure with actually building AI infrastructure is the
CapEx requirement where we show that essentially if you include GPUs as well,
it's about 33 times. But even if you just build the infrastructure, it's already, I
think about, about eight times. So, while this might be very interesting field specifically with this, uh, very
much increasing demand, we also have a couple of charts there that show
where this demand is coming from, but much more computationally intensive, , trading models, but naturally, I think mostly from inference and, we see a lot of
miners looking into this now, and it will be very interesting to see specifically
kind of how the power location changes. Because currently the snapshot we have from June, 2024 is I think a very good
starting point and will be just very interesting to see kind of how, this power
location changes. Right? Uh, most likely it's expected to increase. But I said
before, you can have a lot of megawatts of Bitcoin mining activity or generally
cryptocurrency mining that, might not like one-to-one translate [00:52:00] into, okay, we build like one megawatt of, bitcoin mining, let's say, and one
megawatt of, you know, AI compute. Where in terms of the cost it's just not comparable. so, but it will be quite
interesting to see how things evolve. And we see a lot of public companies
looking into this and we have for those interested, there's a lot of information
there in terms of electricity consumption, these sort of kind of estimates how
much overall data center power usage is expected to be in 2030. so it's a, I think there's a lot of, nuggets of, I wanna call it nuggets of wisdom, but it's a lot of in interesting information, I think , in the last chapter of the
report specifically, about, where we are most likely heading in terms of
mining. , You mentioned some point.
, Move towards the transaction fee based model from currently predominantly
reliant on block subsidy and naturally having this kind of synergies in terms of
infrastructure with AI makes, uh, and diversification on the business model
being one of those points we found out in the survey to be specifically
[00:53:00] interesting to firms. Um, I think this will become more and more important and definitely
something I want to monitor even in much greater detail going forward
because simply, , I think , it's fair to say that, uh, kind of the computational
demands of AI will just significantly increase. I just remembered a tweet from
Sam Altman when we had this entire kind of studio, Ghibli Studio Ghibli thing
coming up and he said, yeah, our GPU are melting. Um, which I can imagine, right? So you You need to have in the future a lot of
computational power. Uh, and I think that a lot of mining firms are very well
positioned to kind of captures opportunity becoming like a more diversified
firms where we possibly might also see firms that say, Hey, well we want, we
wanna be a, a pure play. That's just our main business model and we're gonna want to keep it like that. so it'll be very interesting to observe this kind of different pathway minus take. Jp: Well, Alexandra, let's close it up by talking about what's the reaction been
to the public, you [00:54:00] know, what type of news outlets have reached
out to you? Any cool appearances that you wanna highlight, , to the audience
and like, how are you feeling after a year worth of work and really being able
to see a come to fruition?
Alexander: Yeah. It's so. It's very great to see that there's a lot of public
interest, right? We see a lot of, um, kind of, first of all, I think, we got
interviewed by traditional media, like Fox News. We got naturally featured in
crypto native media. There is a lot of new things coming up, where we had, I
think a lot of, uh, folks were token 2049 and now coming back and see kind of
the new information that is being out there. So we had a couple of requests in that regard as well to, you know, have a, a
podcast, have a, you know, , some sort of interview or doing some other things. So there's a lot of, lot of public interest. I think this data in many cases where
really highly anticipated. Then this overall very well received. Naturally there is a bit of that, this criticism around still, even though we have
captured nearly half [00:55:00] of the network hash rate, that there is still a bit
of the US focus, but that's what it is, right? I mean, in the end, um, it's, I think a
very good starting point, but there's a lot, lot of things I think we can, we can
do better as well and, and trying to engage more people, more geographically
diverse. But overall, I think what we managed to do is providing a deep insights into
this. Very much, um, some, some very nitty gritty data points that usually just
don't have, right? So I think we, we managed to provide a lot of, um, kind of
valuable insights in that regard and hopefully create something that we can
build on and, and improve over time. So we can really manage to capture, you know, at some point maybe like 65, 70% of the network and having it geographically diverse. So really creating
something where we're essentially, as close to the ground truth as possible,
let's say like that, requires an extraordinary amount of kind of engagement
from a lot of different stakeholders. And I hope that with this report we, we set just the foundation to do so. Personally, [00:56:00] yes, I'm, I'm really happy because, you know, there's a
lot of work coming together and a lot of time spent on this. And, um, yeah, also happy that it has been published, right? Because, uh, you know, you
wanna also move on to your, to your next project at some point and then have
some like, , bit of time for yourself as well. But yeah, we are very, I hope that, there will be second edition and, um, we
can, we can continue this work because I think it's just something that is
specifically for those who are fam even, even for those familiar with the, with
the industry, but also particularly for those who are not familiar with the
industry, to having this kind of like, um, data set that, uh, you know, provides
this kind of insights that you otherwise just don't get. Jp: And some of those datas dataset that you highlighted are 138 terawatt
hours. Annual consumption of Bitcoin mining, 0.54% of global electricity, 0.08%
of global GHG emissions with 38.9 metric tons of carbon dioxide. You know, 52% of electricity from sustainable [00:57:00] sources. 82% market share held
by Bitmain, which you, you, you highlighted us being the primary hub, 75%
emerging markets of South America and the Middle East, which you
highlighted. What is, if anything, like other key highlights that just like, come to
mind as we wrap it up here or anything you wanna leave the listener with as
they read the report? Something they should really focus on or really make
sure they can dive into?
Alexander: I think it depends on the person interest, right? So I don't wanna
highlight anything in particular because the point was really to have this very
vast data set. For me personally, one of the key points were to compare our, in
terms of electricity consumption, to compare our theoretical model estimates. At a specific point in time, which was the time of the snapshot, 30 June, 2024, with, you know, those kind of electricity consumption estimates that I can
derive of from the survey data. And then given these are entirely different
methodologies, and then see [00:58:00] whether there is a very star
discrepancy, which would indicate that, well, you know, possibly our
theoretical model, something, something isn't work right, or there's a huge
difference between kind of practitioner insights and our theoretical modeling. but what, I saw was that there is very little difference actually. So it, it, it feels
that kind of, that, our theoretical work in terms of electricity consumption has
been corroborated, which is quite important because, you know, these reports
are not issued on a daily basis. So, you know, things change quickly. We just from June last year, right? I mean, hash rate skyrocketed frankly. So currently it might look very different, right?
And, and so it's important to have. For instance, our daily updated estimate
there that can tell you and, and you know, that it's reliable about, okay, what is
the current state of today in terms of electricity consumption and, you know, until the next report is available. So I think this was, for me, personally, one of the very important points. Also, kind of having this, uh, new insight into kind of the electricity mix, I [00:59:00]
think is very important because our past estimate is really based on very
outdated data, so it's kind of important to have here an update as well. And, um, naturally, you know, everything is important. Right. But I think particularly interesting as well was the e-waste issue where
we saw that okay, repurposing, uh, reselling, recycling is just a huge
component. And yeah, a lot of things as well, specifically when we talk about, you know, the amount of, uh, kind of power coming from otherwise flat gas. And there's a, I think a lot of, a lot of interesting information in there. but yeah, this is kind of my, my insight, but I think everything is important and
it really depends kind of if you read the report, if you're interested in a specific
area, but I think we covered so much ground that, you know, whatever you're
gonna look at, something might be in there for you. Jp: And we will be linking the report in show notes, as well as the, uh, online
UpToDate kind of theoretical model that you're mentioning. So feel free to
look at those to learn more. Alexander, thank you so much for coming on and
remember [01:00:00] to mine on.